INTERVIEW
Luke Knittig
Sr. Director of Communications,
McCain Institute
I’m Luke Knittig with the McCain Institute and you’re in the Arena with leaders and citizens who are taking character-based action. In the Arena with us today we have Ikram Sehgal from Pakistan, a tremendous honor to have you here with us today. You are Chairman of the Pathfinder Group and when I think of you, I think of security in a lot of ways. You’re a security provider as a businessman and run an enterprise that I’d like to explore and talk a little bit more about because it’s a very big and important enterprise. You’re also a security analyst and an expert and that extends to defense because you were in the military and have had very important experiences in the military; one shared with Senator John McCain, you were both prisoners of war. We’re going to get into that as well, but thank you for being in the Arena and we appreciate you being here today.
Ikram Sehgal
Co-Chairman, Pathfinder Group Thank you Luke for having me.
Luke Knittig I think it’s a complicated world as you well know, both from security, defense, any way you want to look at it. Pakistan and the region around Pakistan is complicated. You don’t need me to tell you that, but you’re the expert on it. You’re an expert on that region and how it kind of connects to the world. Can you give us a sense of how it looks right now?
Ikram Sehgal Well, you know the world looks complicated when you look at it at this point of time because really, you have so many players having so many different agendas. But if you really go down to it and understand, it is not much different from anywhere else in the world. It is we who do not apply simpler solutions to what is what seems to be complicated problems and frankly speaking I feel that that particular place has been used by other people. I love to quote General Patton. You know, he said, “no man ever won a war by dying for his country. He won a war by making the other SOB die for his country”. What has happened is that Afghanistan has been used as a platform by interested parties to fight their proxy war.
Different people had different agendas. Soviets, when they came into Afghanistan had an agenda to get to the warm waters in the Indian Ocean and of course, the free world took them on and they were defeated. But during that time, you know, the adjacent countries particularly Pakistan suffered because Pakistan came on the front line. That era elapsed and instead of really going through the full phase of the war, United States abruptly pulled out, and abruptly pulling out – they left a vacuum there. Into that vacuum, let us say adventurers filled that the vacuum, whether it’s nations, individuals, etc.
And in that gap, the Taliban took hold, the Mujahideen, within the factions of Mujahideen, the Taliban were the strongest and they coalesced together and they took over control and of course they tried to bring their brand of extreme Islam which is not acceptable to the world. And then the second stage started after 9/11 – 9/11, of course, was a horrific thing and obviously there had to be some retaliation. That platform was used by other interested countries for hybrid warfare.
Luke Knittig Yeah, that’s what I wanted to kind of get to. You say things aren’t so different. Do you think hybrid warfare represents something new?
Ikram Sehgal Absolutely, because that is where the actual people who are fighting the war, they don’t come into the forefront. They use other people to fight the war. In the 80s it was the Soviets, the Russian lives, Russian money. And after the 9/11 it was American lives and American money being used. Right, for a different purpose and today we proved right by the fact that if you see the United States pursuing talks with the Taliban, right, which I think is fairly successful, which could have happened 20 years ago also, frankly speaking. But the talks with Taliban are going very successful, but why? Because one particular country has been kept out of it. The only country interested in keeping Afghanistan aflame was India and that was for their own purpose because they could keep the war, the non-kinetic war, they use the kinetic war which the Americans were fighting and the Afghans were fighting and they fought their own non-kinetic war for themselves against Pakistan. Right, so with the result that you’ve had American lives, American money, Soviet lives, Soviet money.
The beneficiary has been India all along, and Pakistan has been on the receiving end. Today, the world is changing. The people have come to realize, the Americans have come to realize, the Russians have come to realize that you know we’ve been taken for a ride here and now the things are getting better. And I think we are going to find a solution at the end of the day.
Luke Knittig So, complicated region, players with a lot of different agendas to say the least, but you’re also in the, so you keep on top of that, but you’re also on the security provision side of it, right? So, talk to us a little bit about, I mean you’re a businessman at the end of the day, but you provide and a philanthropist, but you’re providing security. How do you approach that in this environment? Is it easier nowadays? More difficult?
Ikram Sehgal Far more difficult. It’s far more difficult because in the olden days, we just used to put a guard there and expect somebody to come attack you and you had trained the guard to repel that. Now it’s not that because anybody who is going to come at you, is not going to come just by kinetic means. He’s going to come by non-kinetic means. He’s going to come to you through propaganda. He’s going to come to you through electronic means. He’s going to use fake, distorted news.
Luke Knittig So, the whole information domain in the security business, you’ve had to take it into account.
Ikram Sehgal You’ve got to take into account that your people, everybody, carries a telephone. Right. And in the telephone, you just have to insert a false message into the telephone, and you’ll have different reactions from different people. So, you have to be very careful how to counter that in real time. So the nature of the security business has changed. In fact, you know, I just want to apprise you because of that, what we did was, we have a security services division, but about four or five years ago, we opened up a financial services and technology division. Basically, to cover technology, to cover this aspect, where the money can be used, where persons could be actually robbed of their entire savings with electronic means. So, we went into that, cyber threats and things like that.
Luke Knittig I bet people have sought you out for that sort of protection.
Ikram Sehgal Well, not only that, frankly speaking, we made a business out of our dream, which is good. You can do two things at one time.
Luke Knittig Well, I guess we should go back a little bit to what got you into the security business. So, you were an army officer in Pakistan. Is that correct?
Ikram Sehgal Yes.
Luke Knittig We’ll talk a little bit about your service.
Well, you know, basically, my father was infantry, I was infantry, right. And I went into aviation for some time. Did a stint of two and a half years, flying aircraft. I came back and, you know, we were brought up on the British regimental tradition.
Luke Knittig I worked for a British General in Afghanistan and he would come back from Pakistan. I hope I can say this. He would say, gosh, they’re more British than the British.
Ikram Sehgal: Yeah, absolutely.
Ikram Sehgal You would have people coming to you and they were long-lasting relationships, etc. So, when I left the army and I came into business, I was doing pretty well doing counter trade and other stuff like that. And people from my regiment would come and line up in my garage and, you know, give us a job. One day I said, let me try and I started the private security services business to actually absorb jobs and that became a success. We formed a small team and that team was very good. And we soon got the American contract for the embassy.
Luke Knittig That’s a pretty big deal.
Ikram Sehgal That’s a pretty big deal. And, you know, we’ve had this uninterrupted run of 31 years guarding the American contract. It is the largest manpower contract in the world. We have 2,700 guards guarding American property, American lives, American institutions, etc. all over Pakistan in four different provinces.
Luke Knittig Yeah, I didn’t know that. I suspect not too many people know that. That is a big enterprise.
Ikram Sehgal Absolutely. And because of that, obviously, we learned on the job. We had these diplomatic security service people, the mobile training teams coming on and training our people. We stay ahead of the curve.
Luke Knittig: It takes a partnership to do this.
Ikram Sehgal Absolutely. And we were very lucky. I have a partner here, a company called Torres. And basically Jerry Torres, Jerry and I hit it off very well. We formed a very balanced relationship. He would provide all the technical side and look after all the other things. We would be the people on the ground in Pakistan. He would make sure that our people were trained enough, we had the logistic support, etc. So, I think that worked out, it has worked out very well. Jerry is now selling out his business, but I know the people he is selling out to. They are as good human beings as Jerry, however Jerry is a loner. They seem to function as a team, maybe more organized and capable. That transition could be good for us.
Luke Knittig Gosh, 31 years and going strong. But you skipped over, I think, what’s a pretty important part of your service. And this book gets at it and I get you’re not going to be able to go into everything that’s in the book, but you were a prisoner of war, I’m gonna draw too big a distinction here, but I think you were a prisoner of war about the same time Senator John McCain was a prisoner of war. And both of you have gone on to really long careers. Do I have that right? I mean, is there’s a connection there?
Ikram Sehgal There is a connection. And I think that was the connection that sort of drew us together. I mean, he was there a considerable length of time and his amazing story, his endurance and his courage. And, you know, I was far luckier. I escaped on the 100th day. I was 99 days in prison and on the 100th day I escaped. I was the first Pakistani prisoner of war to ever escape in history from India. I mean, it’s a long story and of course I’ve given you a book and I hope you get to read it.
Luke Knittig Well, I am going to read it.
Ikram Sehgal I was very lucky – just to give you a little background – lucky because I was very privileged to have very good; let us say, grounding right in the very beginning of my life. Between the ages of 7 and 11, I was brought up in a Catholic convent by a Texas nun as a good Muslim.
Luke Knittig Now run that by me again. I’m not sure I completely caught up to that.
Ikram Sehgal I said I was brought up by a Texas nun, in a Catholic convent, as a good Muslim.
Luke Knittig That is pretty unique. You need to write another book just on that.
Ikram Sehgal Today… I’m very proud to say this that in the name of Sister Mary Leo, my company guards 125 Christian churches for the last 25 years free of cost on Sundays. We do that and then, you know, unlike in Sri Lanka where they had an easy run; in Pakistan, if they come up against us, they will first they will find we’ve been there and till today we haven’t lost a single person in the 25 years.
Luke Knittig I’m struck, you know, I need to read your books. I’m delinquent. I need to catch up on your book, but I’ve certainly read Senator McCain’s book and character is destiny and I’m struck by the things you’re talking about here. I sense character and strength of character in that. Maybe sound like I’m pandering, but it’s action and it’s courage. It seems at the core of how you go about your business. Do I have that right?
Ikram Sehgal Well, you know, this lady, she was amazing. She just instilled things into me and when you’re between 7 and 11, you’re at a very impressionable age. I was probably the son she never had. And so, she put her heart and soul into me and a lot of things that I write today and I write a weekly column, which is not something many businessmen do in the world. I believe I’m the only one of the few people who write a weekly column as a businessman and I get away with it. Like my son says, I get away with it. But the fact is that I do feel that she had a lot to do with whatever I am today. And you know, I owe it to her. One of my books I’ve dedicated to her, and I must tell you that when my son was going to college and for the first time I came to Boston and she drove about 110 miles. She was old at that time, but she drove to see me. We were talking to each other for an hour or so and my son was talking to the other people and when they went away, my son told me he said, now I know who your real mother is.
Luke Knittig That’s strong. That’s very, very strong. Now I have read some of your columns. I’m a little behind on your book. Well, you just gave me the book. It’s not easy to track down. I should have tracked it down. But you wrote a column fairly recently that says you think that the Prime Minister of New Zealand should get a Nobel prize for how she handled that. Tell me a little bit more about that; it was a horrible instance of terrorism and hate and extremism.
Ikram Sehgal When something like that happens, you can go any number of directions from there. But the profound thing that happened there was the instinctive leadership that she provided. First thing, a leader has to be seen, right? And she made herself seen at the scene of the incident soon afterwards. She showed sympathy symbolically by wearing a headscarf. I’m sure she doesn’t want to wear a hijab all her life. To start with it did a number of things. First, it gave a lot of confidence to the Muslim community. Number two, it brought this great silent majority among the New Zealand people to back her. And she kept at it. She went to parliament, passed gun laws. Would you be able to pass a gun law in United States in a week’s time?
Luke Knittig We just haven’t been able to do it. We haven’t. No.
Ikram Sehgal For different reasons. But the point is that she did. She’s done things which I think were really out of the ordinary. And this is a young lady. She’s not old. She’s the youngest, I think, female prime minister ever. I think she may be the youngest prime minister ever. But the point is that she went and made herself felt where she had to be. And because of that, she aroused a lot of good feeling in the world, which is there. These extremists, they take hold of you because they’re virulent, they’re vocal and because they think that they can then ride over you because of the strength of their brutal actions.
Luke Knittig: Right. The very nature of terrorism. Terrorizing.
Ikram Sehgal Yes. But here she was. And the reaction from the people was very positive, and I think that by itself shows that if you want to, you know, what is a Nobel Peace Prize? Nobel Peace Prize is meant for you to have something distinctive to make sure that something is there that changes the destiny of people. I think by her action, she changed the destiny of New Zealand for the better. New Zealand may not know it today, but 20 years or 30 years later that will come as a defining moment. She stepped out and made sure that her presence had an impact on what is going to happen on the present and the future.
Luke Knittig I think kind of recognizing the leadership and character-driven leadership and consequences and integrity is important.
Ikram Sehgal Exactly. I mean, I want to bring you back to John McCain. Throughout we found a constant stream in John McCain, constant thread in John McCain. Whether it was his, let us say, behavior as a prisoner of war. Where he stood his ground. Where he could have, many times, come back. He was a son of an admiral. They in fact offered to release him. He said no, I will not go back till the last thing. He suffered indignity, he suffered torture, etc. This physical disability lasted him throughout his life. He stood his ground, on his principles. That defined the American character. You know that my sense of Americans is, the character of the Americans is fair play. The American character is described by fair play and fair play describes to a lot of other things integrity, honesty, strength of character etc. Fair play comes into it. I think that particular thing of John McCain was very endearing.
Luke Knittig What’s your advice for the next generation of leaders; here, Pakistan wherever you choose to.
Ikram Sehgal The next generation of leaders must have a clear perception of what the people want. If the people want something which may affect them adversely in the long run, they must have the courage to stand up and make sure they take them on the right direction. You cannot be led by your people, if you want to lead your people, you have to make them follow you. And that is the essence of it all. You cannot be led by public opinions. You cannot be led by polls, and polls can be wrong as we know. Particularly in this modern world where everything is instantaneous, where social media is used as a weapon, so at this point of time, I think you need to be ahead of the curve and you need to lead from the front. You’ve got to show a personal character. In adverse circumstances, you’ve got to show your people that you are part and parcel of them and yet you can define the ways that they have to go in order for them to have a prosperous future and a peaceful future.
Luke Knittig So, we started this interview, at least in part, about tracing a little bit of the complexity of the security environment and providing security. Do you see a next generation of leaders embracing security provision? Is there someone out there, like you, that’s going to be starting and carrying forward for 30, 40 years with security provision in companies because it’s more complicated. Do you see that?
Ikram Sehgal I think there is no other choice for them. In the present environment where security can be subverted at lightning speed, for them to do anything that they have to do without keeping, let us say, an eye open or an ear open for security, would be disastrous for them and disastrous for the people, the constituencies that they sort of lead; because they need to understand that that is one thing that can derail all your future. You can be the best economist in the world, you can be the best engineer in the world. You can be the best, let us say, visionary in the world, but if you have maybe even non-state actors come and derail your dreams into nightmares, you will have problems. So, you have to be security minded even as you are being democratic minded.
Luke Knittig Ikram Sehgal, we really appreciate you being In the Arena. We know we’re going to keep going and it’s fantastic to have you here. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you very much.
Ikram Sehgal Thank you.
Luke Knittig This podcast is produced by Patrick McCain and Justin Kessler. If you like what you hear, please subscribe, tell your friends, or leave a review.
