Commodore Sadeed Malik: Bismillah-ir-Rahman-ir-Rahim. I am Commodore Retired Sadeed Malik. I am the Chief Executive Officer of Karachi Council on Foreign Relations. It’s an honor and a great pleasure, Excellency, to welcome you. As desired by you that it should be just an informal meeting, so we only have the members of the Board Of Governors. As it is an informal meeting, I thought we should very briefly introduce each other before we get on with this meeting.
You have met our Chairman, on your right – Chairman Ikram Sehgal. Before I introduce him, I think I should introduce you all to the Ambassador. His Excellency Bernhard Stephan Schlagheck is a career diplomat. He graduated in Law and Economics and after that he started his banking career, but then he shifted to diplomacy. His diplomatic assignments have been in different countries and organizations; Kuwait, NATO, Brussels, European Council, Moscow, and then he was a Chief of Staff of UN Security Council Negotiating Team on Status of Kosovo, he was in Nigeria, and now he is Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary to Pakistan.
On his left is the Consul General Holger Ziegeler, with whom we meet in Karachi very often at all the diplomatic functions.
On your right side, is our chairman Ikram Sehgal, he heads a group of nine companies. He is the founding member of World Economic Forum at Davos. I have forwarded his bio to all of you, perhaps you have had a look. On your left is Admiral Khalid Mir, he is a three star admiral, he has done nearly all the commands of Pakistan Navy. He commanded a fleet, and was the Deputy Chief, and then he was an ambassador of Pakistan. He was Chief Chairman of Karachi Port Trust, and he heads many of the social organizations in Pakistan. He is our Co-Chairman. Our Co-chairperson is about to arrive. She is the Rector of a university, and she has fulfilled and achieved a lot of milestones. Our Vice chairman, Mr. Javaid Ashraf, he is a Retired Federal Secretary, and he has been the head of province of Karachi as Chief Secretary. After retirement, he is a member of a number of social organizations, and he is our Vice-Chairman.
To his right is our Treasurer, a leading businessman of Karachi. He chairs English-speaking Union of Pakistan. If I start explaining about him, it would take me a lot of time. Then we have Air Marshal Riazuddin Sheikh, member of the Board of Governors. We have Mr. Farooq Afzal, he is a leading businessman of Karachi. He is an exporter and he is the chairman of Pak-Turkish Associations and a number of other associations, which would take longer to list. On the left is Dr. Azeem Akbar, he has headed the oil industry in UAE. He was the Advisor to the previous Sheikh of UAE. One of the member of board of governors Mr. Irfan Majeed, he is in marine business and he acknowledges ships coming to Karachi from all over. He was on his travel and somehow he was here now and we were able to get a hold of him. There are two other members that I’ll introduce when they’re here.
Germany has been a very dear country to all of us. If you permit me to include something very personal, one of my paternal uncle refused to come back after doing his PhD at Cambridge and went to Germany before the Second World War. He stayed in East Berlin and was taken away by Russians, and he never returned from Siberia. We have a great regard for Germany all over the history, and therefore I invite you and the members to start our informal discussions.
H.E.Bernhard Schlagheck: Thank you very much for this very kind introduction. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, I am very pleased to be here. This is the fifth time I came to Karachi, but so far I haven’t made it to this prestigious Council. And since my tenure has drawn too close, I thought I have to see you and meet you, at least if I come for the last time, which I actually have. So my tenure ends by the end of the month, and I am here in Pakistan, and I just wanted to pay my respect to this very prestigious and one of the most traditional Council on Foreign Relations of the country. And also of course, seeks the opportunity to have an ultimate, possibly framed discussion. I do not want to make big words now on Germany, on our bilateral relations. Although there is a lot good to say, we have very trusted, a very long-standing political, economic, military, cultural and people-to-people relations, which is something you all can be proud of. I would rather prefer to have a sort of exchange of views with you, on perhaps the prospects of Pakistani-European, Pakistani- German cooperation in the future. Perhaps also about the overall foreign policy situation, because this is the council particularly developed for policy issues, on the strategic and foreign policy situation of your country.
So perhaps a word on our bilateral relations, we had an event last year with the celebration of the 70 years of diplomatic relations between the two countries. I mean that was relatively lavishly celebrated. We had a vessel of the Bundeswehr, a German vessel for a relatively rare occasion. I think it was after 20 years or so, but it was in reciprocity of a ship visit of the Pakistani navy in Hamburg. We then had, of course, the central event in Islamabad, with the Prime Minister and a number of ministers and that also had a German business week in Lahore with a showcasing event.
We are on a very good basis, but of course good can always be better. I think we are making a constant progress in consolidating our bilateral relations. Our Foreign Minister was in Islamabad early last week, unfortunately she had to cut short her visit because she then contracted coronavirus, but at least she had a very substantive discussion with the Foreign Minister of Pakistan. It lasted a lot longer, I mean the embassies are always busy in making all the arrangements and we expected it to be, so it lasted for more than three hours. There was a purpose for relatively young people, I mean Bilawal Bhutto Zardari and our Foreign Minister Baerbock, I think they struck a chord with each other and that was good.
We also made some considerable progress in our bilateral agenda, but also on the GSP+ issue, which is of utmost importance. It’s a win-win scheme, but I would say very great moves to particularly Pakistani Textile Industry. So that I think should suffice, I would be very happy if we could enter into a kind of conversation about the German-European-Pakistani foreign policy relations, and particular prospects. I would be very interested to have your view. I know the great advantages of this country is its diversity. Sometimes aspects coming from the very important business and social centers like Karachi are not always appropriately reflected in the discussions. So that is also, for me an opportunity to have from very good and relevant members of Karachi society, your view on foreign policy in the region, foreign policy between Pakistan and Europe, and perhaps prospects for times to come. For the moment, thank you very much for this invitation and I am very happy to be here.
Question/Comment: Thank you so much for your kind words, as you said that we just celebrated 70th anniversary of relations between Germany and Pakistan. I would just like to mention a few points. I think that our intellectual and our ideological father Allama Iqbal, he spent a lot of time in Germany and Heidelberg. In fact he said that my life in Germany was a very sweet dream. I think there is a road after his name in Heidelberg, and also his commemorative plate there. When we remember Iqbal, we remember Dr. Ruth Pfau. She spent 55 years in Pakistan trying to end leprosy and all that, she would always remain in our hearts. So these are the elements which really count so much in Pakistan Germany relationship. And then Pakistan is among the few countries with trade surplus, which is a very good thing and I hope that we can increase the stats of industry. I think there are mainly textile and leather but I believe that we can expand it to other areas like IT. Pakistan is increasing its export in IT and I think with Germany’s cooperation, we can do a lot more.
The other thing which I’d like to say is that there are some agreements between Germany and Pakistan, one of them is about cooperation in technology and research. I would suggest that we should increase activities in that area. I am a technologist myself so I can understand how ferociously and speedily technology is changing our lives, and I think that this is an area where we can possibly increase our cooperation, and it will be a great thing for Pakistan. In technology, if you need any further discussions on what we can do, I am available for those discussions. Thank you very much.
H.E. Bernhard Schlagheck: Thank you very much for the first remark, I have to say I’ve never came across people so generous and so hospitable. I mean as a diplomat you are mostly being treated quite kindly by your host. But I’ve witnessed Pakistan in top form. I mean you come to the vast village in Baluchistan, the people are not able to speak any kind of language that we know and we are still being treated nonetheless in such a friendly and wholehearted manner. That is really amazing but on what you said, yes I think there is a mentality emanated from I would say very eminent personalities. Iqbal himself was very much related to Johann Wolfgang von Goethe which is our national poet. Iqbal actually wrote very distinctively on Goethe’s work. I mean Goethe was probably 100 years older than Iqbal. He was dead as Iqbal came into Germany. But he was quite severely impressed by Goethe’s outrage particularly to the mystic world. This very famous east-west Divan which had been offered by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe had a great impact on Muhammad Iqbal. His words seem quite very German, I mean I came across some letters he had written in the first years or so, he had quite a good relation with the landlady, and he returned back to Pakistan at some stage, and wrote letters in almost perfect German to this lady, so it was amazing.
But then of course there is huge potential in gearing up the degree of our bilateral trade relations, it’s indeed very much still, I would say determined by textile, leather, surgical instruments and these kind of things. I think we have to climb up the value chain better. I am really impressed by what I am seeing on that scene, particularly here in Karachi and Lahore, Islamabad is a bit lagging behind, but there are really interesting startups. These startups, they are making money without the state, without the government. You are asking them what could the government do, what could we as embassies do in order to promote and foster your business, and they’re saying the best thing you can do is simply let us work. They are profitable, they are good, they are innovative and I think there is a lot to see in the future particularly from IT and IT services, so this is something that we should embark upon.
And then also as you said, research and development, that is unfortunately underestimated. It’s a bit underappreciated, perhaps. What you said, yes, there are agreements that need to be filled with a bit more of love. We have roughly, ten to fifteen thousand Pakistani students in Germany. That becomes increasingly popular because it’s basically tuition free, so it’s rather attractive to Pakistanis, and probably very qualified Pakistani students go to Germany instead of the US and UK. I think there is a potential, there are even some German students here, we have some at LUMS in Lahore, but as you said there is certainly a leeway to go still. But I agree with you, these are areas of cooperation in the future.
Question/Comment: Excellency, it is a privilege sitting across you. Germany has done a lot for us and it still is doing, but there is a lot more that can be done. Today is special because the FATF meeting is taking place in Germany. Germany also happens to be the greatest trading partner as far as Pakistan is concerned. The two nations which cooperated with Pakistan at the formative stages were Germany and Japan, one in the east, one in the west. What we see with the paradigm shift in the international relations, more of what happens to Pakistan depends upon the big brothers in the west thinking about Pakistan. Is Germany going to be independent of those influences because Pakistan is a country of 220 million, there’s a lot that we can benefit from each other. For instance, I grew up with names like Volkswagen, Opel, and it’s not there anymore. Others have come in, Germany still has a chance to come. I am part of the GPCCI, I am a director there. We have been trying, we had a MoU signed with Audi, and Volkswagen was thinking about coming but nothing happened, your views on that?
H.E. Bernhard Schlagheck: First of all, thank you very much. On the prospects for Germany to engage with Pakistan, I understand your question is asking how is the overall geostrategic landscape impacting on countries like Germany and Pakistan. I would say, yes you’re right, we are seeing a kind of paradigm shift, we have a sort of shift in international relations. Unfortunately the area of multilateralism in a classical sense might be over. We are now edging towards a more polarized world again, a multipolar scheme with very distinctive poles, basically two poles; United States on the one hand, China on the other. Yes, of course that has implications for the rest of the world.
We are seeing foreign policy of Pakistan and Germany, we are seeing eye to eye in each and everything. Pakistan is part of a different geographical and political landscape. There is a common understanding that we do not want to fall into the threat of the binary political scheme. After the Second World War, it was a harsh time particularly for Germany which was divided. The albatross of an all-out war hanging over Germany for almost 40 years, there is nothing to wish for to be again in such a binary or this camp mentality. You have to be in one thing or the other. I think it’s Pakistan’s – and my sense is that is understood by most in government, regardless of it being the previous government or the government now and to a large extent it’s even better understood by the what we call here the establishment – that we somehow should try to be in the midst of all and try not to fall into that trap of camp politics. We should try to make it possible to engage and interact across these camps that are building up. That does not mean that we should not stick to our principles. That is what we are seeing now in this Russia-Ukraine spat.
My government and the Pakistani government have, I would say, slightly different opinion on that. The Pakistani government – previous and the incumbent government – they kept the principled position that Pakistan does not want to reflect into a conflict that is not of the region, that is not of immediate concern to Pakistan and therefore it should maintain this neutral stance that Pakistan has executed so far, particularly within the United Nations and the Human Rights Council. We, however, also from our experience of the Cold War, we are of the opinion, we cannot accept, we cannot tolerate blatant violation of international law.
When I did discuss with my Pakistani friends in Islamabad sometimes, there is a kind of argument being put forward by the Russians that is even dangerous for countries like Pakistan, although I don’t ignore the fact that Pakistan is an atomic power, that makes things certainly different, but that the Russian approach is to say Ukraine basically doesn’t exist, it is a concoction and it has no right to exist. I was wondering, the Indians for instance could not apply that argument, they could say well basically South Asia, this is an Indian idea and Pakistan, by the way does not exist, does not have a right to exist. I think this kind of argument put forward by the Russians, to deny the very existence of a country that had been internationally recognized. It’s not that there had been a dispute between Russia and Ukraine about the very legitimate existence of this country which had been recognized but then to say well, historically, there is no space for a country like Ukraine, it’s basically all Russian; it’s Russian or it’s Nazi, there is nothing between, and if it is Nazi it needs to be rooted out, and if it’s Russian, well, then it must be fine if the Russians come and take it back. I think this is a very dangerous argumentation and I would wish at some stage that the Pakistani policy would have been a bit more forthcoming in condemning these policies, but I understand of course there are different viewpoints here.
Of course there is an experience here in Pakistan of being dragged into conflicts, Afghanistan, so you might say Pakistan had to some extent burned its fingers in the past and does not want to burn its fingers now in a conflict that is not directly related to the region.
On German FATF engagement I have to say it’s not yet over but there is a meeting in Berlin. It’s not led by the Germans, it’s just hosted by Germany. It is now a very crucial meeting for Pakistan. My sense is I was misunderstood, I spoke to some journalists, and now it was in today’s press that I said Pakistan will most probably be removed from gray list. I did not say that, what I said was that there is a likelihood that Pakistan will be removed because of the remarkable progress made by Pakistan in a number of areas, starting from money laundering to anti-terrorist funding. Embassies – we are not immediately involved in that in our system but also with the Americans and with many other countries, it’s being run by the Ministry of Finance. Of course I know, by and large, how things stand and there is a decent chance that the plenary now in Berlin will decide on a so-called site visit, this is a delegation coming here, checking once again what has been done over the last years. In the light of that site visit, it ought to be positive, the next plenary will order to bring Pakistan out from the gray list. That is my expectation.
Question: What is happening in Ukraine and what could be happening between India and Pakistan, about India not accepting the existence of Pakistan like in the case of Russia, saying so, but the history of Russia as a country has been there. India was never a country, there were just states. I think the other thing is that this is a nuclear state, to say that it did not exist is a different ballgame, and it’s not quite the same. And again the history, if Berlin Wall has come down, it is because the Russians agreed to it under an agreement that NATO will not be expanded eastward.
H.E. Bernhard Schlagheck: It’s not my argument to say that Ukraine is not in existence, it is an argument made sometimes by the Russians or particularly by President Putin.
Question: Excellency, if I may also add, Pakistan may have said that it wants to remain neutral in the conflict, but at the same time it has in so many words condemned Russian aggression. Something I would like to add, coming from a South Asian perspective, it is almost becoming annoying at the masses level is how what is happening in India to Muslims, is completely ignored in the western narrative of human rights including what is happening now. It includes razing down their homes, and here they firefight on the diplomatic front but continue to do everything which is against norms of human rights and humanitarian law on their land. With all due respect, sir, the situation in Afghanistan, isolating the Taliban and pushing them against the wall has only deteriorated the situation on the ground including rights for women and I think the west needs to rethink its policy there, strangulating them financially, pushing them against the wall has not helped the situation. There is no alternative for now in Afghanistan put in place by western consensus led by the United States and now abandoning them and they in retaliation, now doing things on the ground which have consequences for human beings, for people.
H.E. Bernhard Schlagheck: I already see why I wanted to come here because we have a very good and friendly discussion. First, on Russia and India or this comparison between Russia-Ukraine, India-Pakistan, you see also I have to say, I am not a big expert in the history of the subcontinent, but I am an expert in Russian history, and the history of the Soviet Union is also a sort of colonization project on their territory, they colonized basically all this, particularly the Central Asian and the Caucasian countries, which are now independent. The crux with Ukraine is that it is to some extent the cradle of Russia. What makes it so annoying for the Russians to accept, because what is now Russia has actually been emerged from here, so you have an element of colonialism in the history of Russia. Of course we have still an element of colonialism in the history of Russia, and we have an element of colonialism in the history of the subcontinent. I traveled to India before, not now during my stay here in Pakistan, but sometimes in particular there are places where you don’t know whether you are in Pakistan or India.
Yes, mostly there are Muslims here and there are Hindus over there, but still even the architecture of the cities, you cannot really tell particularly as a foreigner, I mean you might do but I could not. So what I am saying is this argument there is a historic, perhaps a mentality that calls for the dominance of one ethnic or political or economic group. The Russians’ idea that might have been emerged from Ukraine or from what but it has, so to say, submerged and pervaded the whole space.
I think this neo-imperialistic approach by the Russian president is a danger for each and every region, Africa as well, because there too is also this colonial legacy and borders that are very artificially drawn. I mean the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is still contested by the Afghans. Of course, it was artificially drawn by the British, but again at some stage, we had to settle things. I think this is a very dangerous argument.
Dr. Huma Baqai, Vice Chairperson KCFR: I could not agree with you more. I had the fortune of visiting Kiev and I had an interaction with the students there, and it was from the forum of Karachi Council on Foreign Relations. After a very long lecture on peace, the only question the students there wanted to ask me was how did Pakistan retain its nuclear program and why did we give it up? And this was exactly after Crimea. So I think the messaging across this is really bad. Even with the way, the support that Ukraine got that has come from the western world, it has not been able to do for Ukraine what it was supposed to do. The signaling in South Asia is terrible, the signaling in South Asia is that India, being in close convergence to Washington and perhaps also with other European capitals can completely get away with buying first oil from Russia and then subsequently from Iran. I really think that despite the argument that you’ve put forward, it makes very good sense, but the signals that are getting out for developing countries from the Russian situation are not very pretty. I don’t think the restraining mechanisms are working because they are selective.
Question: NATO has been aggressive in expanding eastwards and after the collapse of the USSR, Warsaw Pact countries have been encouraged to apply for NATO membership. Now, seeing things in this context, Mr. Zelensky requesting the NATO membership; wasn’t it the last straw provoking Russia that NATO is expanding eastward, having an aggressive mentality. Now again, Finland is being encouraged to apply for NATO membership. You have to draw a line. Putin was demanding neutrality of Ukraine. It could have worked as a legitimate and a logical buffer between eastern Russia and all of Europe.
H.E. Bernhard Schlagheck: I agree with you, there is really a grain of truth in what you said, although, I think the sequence is a bit different. Yes, it is true after the demise of the Soviet Union, there were a number of new countries, who then for their own purposes and for their own political considerations, decided they want to join NATO. For instance, the Baltic countries, part of the Soviet Union as we all know they did so, and that was not received pleasantly by the Russians at that stage. But what can we do, I mean, it has to do with the right of each and every country to determine its own political direction. It’s self-determination, and very rightly so, what you are requesting for instance for Kashmir, so it was their original and genuine right to opt for a closer relationship with NATO.
When it comes to Ukraine and to Georgia and to countries immediately adjoining Russia, you have a point, because these are spheres of interest and as much as the Americans took exception to the Russians being in Cuba in the 60s, as you know, there is a security interest of Russia to be not surrounded by hostile countries. There was an application, a Ukrainian application by a democratic legitimized government to accede to NATO, which was not accepted by NATO in the Bucharest Summit in 2008. The Germans and the French were against, for the very reasons you mentioned, and others were against, the Americans were pushing it, it’s true, so the compromise was to some extent in principle they have a right to accede but it has to be discussed in detail. So it was basically a procedural decision that diplomats come up with. If you cannot resolve a dispute you come up with some procedural thing, but clearly, the Ukrainians were not part of NATO and clearly the Ukrainians had no clear-cut aspiration to join NATO, because it was said, it needs to be discussed in detail.
Now in the last and that makes me sometimes so wary about the whole Russian argument is the appetite of the west, even of the Americans to have the Ukrainians accede to NATO had significantly decreased over the last couple of years. Yes, there was perhaps, an American appetite in the 2008-9-10. But since then, with all the problems, with the pivot of the Americans towards Asia and China, the appetite for this kind of geopolitical engineering in Europe and in the immediate vicinity of Putin was absolutely on a decreasing path. So this very aggressive stance by Putin came to some extent, as a surprise. I mean not that he actually invaded, because that was building up over time, you saw troops there for weeks and months, but that he actually took the step to invade and very brutally, I mean, a country that he considered to be basically Russia, that came as a surprise.
I don’t think actually that the west, with all respect to what you said, again, it’s not totally wrong, there are some elements in these 20 years that led you perhaps to believe there were some tendencies in the west to call on the Russians. Yes, at some stage there was a tendency, Americans were the only superpower so they tried to get the most out of it. Even I think from a from a power politics perspective that is even understandable. I am not saying it was right.
Question: I heard your comments about the war in Ukraine, and the importance of condemning something that is wrong, so what is your government’s stance on the Kashmir problem and the increased violence and aggression against Muslims of that region, how do you think Germany can help address this problem?
H.E. Bernhard Schlagheck: Well, we continue to say it’s basically a question between India and Pakistan, it is a human rights situation that is unacceptable, and the Chancellor made it quite clear. The human rights situation in Kashmir is not tolerable, and it’s not sustainable. The Kashmir issue has been raised, the German Minister said we agree with the human rights aspect, and it is a severe problem that needs to be addressed and we are doing it. The human rights situation in Kashmir is a standing item on the bilateral agenda between Germany and India, and the Indians don’t like that. I made my remarks with the press on Kashmir and on return I have the Indian Charge d’affaires on the phone. It is a professional relationship, it’s not a high commissioner, because the ambassadors were sent home after the August, 2019 decision by the Indian government but I am quite certain I have him on the phone saying, you said something about the human rights situation and I said yes, that is the position of my government.
I think you should also see, far-sighted Pakistani colleagues in the Foreign Office but also politicians and people like you, they see that on the other hand we have a clear improvement in the security situation at the Line of Control in the last year which is remarkable. I am not saying that’s for the first time, we have seen it before and then it collapsed, but now in this relatively toxic atmosphere after the Indian decisions in August, 2019, I thought that is a very major decision particularly from the military. Everybody knows in India and Pakistan that at some stage if you want to harness the economic, the sociological, the cultural potential of this region, which is huge, you can only do it together. I mean all this talk about connectivity, that is all right and it depends first on Afghanistan and we haven’t spoken about Afghanistan, you mentioned Afghanistan rightly so, rightly so, because to some extent I find the official Pakistani policy has sort of this symptom of buyer’s remorse that we are seeing because this enthusiasm I saw last August after the fall of Kabul has ended.
So all this connectivity hinges on; one, stability in Afghanistan and second, to come to terms with India, otherwise it’s not feasible, and everybody knows, so it’s absolutely necessary. Now, I know Mr. Modi is a tough cookie, he has a huge parliamentary majority. This is really a disadvantage because he does not have to fear that there are backlashes from outside or that perhaps the stability of the government is in jeopardy. I think Modi understands with all this Hindutva, which is horrible and runs contrary to the basic idea of what India stands for but, nonetheless, I think Modi, I am not talking about some people at the fringes of the BJP which are very fascist people. I think even Modi understands he’s not doing much for the moment but there is now a window of opportunity. If there is some kind of stability in Pakistani politics, which is so far not the case, because the government that we have is very fragile and before there is a new round of elections I don’t think that will change. Perhaps even after that, I mean PTI says that if we have elections everything is settled, but I don’t think so. They are dreaming of two-third majority, so I don’t know whether there will be much more stability in the future.
Question: You have spoken about diplomatic relations and political relations, I am a businessman so I am concerned about trade and investment. Excellency, thank you very much for supporting us for the GSP+, I would like to ask that the government was advocating for us to get the GSP+ but what would be the possibility for its continuation after 2024, thank you very much. Secondly, we do not see extensive investment in Pakistan by Germany, what would Germany want from Pakistan.
H.E. Bernhard Schlagheck: I think there is a good chance for Pakistan to get the prolongation of GSP+ beyond 2024, I am not saying it’s a foregone conclusion because it’s a bilateral trade scheme, it’s basically a bargain between trade advantages for Pakistan on one side, on the other labor law, human rights, civil rights for the EU on the other side. I would say Pakistan has made a lot of progress, but we all know there are deficiencies in civil and human rights situation. We still have this question of enforced disappearances, I know the civilian government cannot do much about it.
We have a problem of misuse of the blasphemy law, I understand the blasphemy law that belongs to the basic ingredients of this country, and I am not contesting that, but the misuse of this law which is very easily done to some extent, and there are cases of punishing by death. Death penalties also, so we have to reduce the provisions that allow for that, I think with the new government it has become so far slightly better, but it’s still not all gold that shines in Pakistan. There is still some unfinished business also with regard to trade reciprocities but by and large, I am quite certain that Pakistan will not only complete the current cycle successfully, and there is a delegation from Brussels which is coming in two weeks’ time to monitor the situation and to sit together with Pakistan government to take stock. Then also, I would say there is decent reason to believe that Pakistan, if they comply with the conditions and that means to adopt seven further human and civilian rights conventions, most of them are already signed so it’s not that big of a deal, then I would say it’s quite likely that Pakistan will get also the next phase of the GSP+.
Consul General Holger Ziegeler: I am actually afraid to take the word of the ambassador because we’ve all been now in the stratosphere of international political situation and very deep human rights questions, and now we’re diving down into the investment part. There is a Board of Investment Pakistan. We are joking among ourselves that we are unpaid on the list of Pakistani officials because we’re working to improve the image of Pakistan as far as the economic conditions are concerned, in Germany. Germans – they like security, they like safety and they have these people from left and right talk to them and say when you invest in a country, is money laundering an issue or all these things, so they are very careful to which countries they go and basically the whole world is open to us, so it’s a competition amongst different countries and it’s not a decision by the German government to say which investment you should go for.
We’re working in your interest by tearing down some of these terrible stories about security in Pakistan, we do not see a security issue for a German company that is working here, so that’s what we talk about. We bring delegations, our German chamber network is extending to Pakistan soon. However, the ground conditions here are not fully conducive to attract a lot of German money, because the return on investment is not fully guaranteed, the boundary conditions of economic activities in Pakistan have changed quickly. As the government can change, the laws change and business doesn’t like that, and also there’s not yet enough Pakistanis abroad, the expats coming to the country and say yes Pakistan, we want to invest there, it’s a chance., we always say, Germans, they will follow what the expats do. I rather would say it’s not the German money that is likely to come to Pakistan, there is enough money in this country, there are good, big conglomerates who would like to invest, who would like to do something new.
How much more can you try to develop textiles or leather or something, as some others have already started, they must try to attract international technology and that’s where we are the perfect partners, because we do not come colonialized. Definitely not in the economic sphere, we come always as partners, we want other people to earn money so that we can earn money too. One example is, and as we mentioned before the plant of a Volkswagen, that is actually being constructed on the other side of the Hub river, but it’s part of Karachi, not yet finished and it has several hiccups over the years because Volkswagen is careful, but they are coming and the investment is proceeding. It’s Pakistani money from Premier Motors, it’s German and Czech technology, Škoda is part of the Volkswagen group and Škoda is a little lower price than usual, and that’s why the Volkswagen group has decided to enter with a combination of Škoda and Volkswagen. You will see them here and it’s a good step forward. But you see, also other investment not in the traditional field, we are no longer in consumer goods like the Volkswagen vehicle, we are no high price, high quality and you see the Audis driving on the streets here. Tomorrow, the ambassador will inaugurate an electric charger, the first supercharger in Pakistan installed by Siemens, so Siemens technology, Audi with Premier Motors has paid for it and Libra is installing it at one of its previous petrol stations and now they will offer also charges. This is the technology of the future, electric cars and the charging comes to the country and German technology is part of it. Premier Motors, like others they see it like put a little money, take some of your own money, do not put it in banks or spend it somewhere, put it in your countries.
German technology is readily available and will pay. If I walk tomorrow to a textile factory, if I walk into a pharma factory, the successful ones have German machinery and they know it’s high price, but you have two advantages; it will be long lasting, it’s not Chinese machinery that will last the guaranteed period plus one day. It will last 30 years maybe not nowadays anymore but I’ve seen an old Merc factory in Quetta, the machines there have been there for 60 years and they’re still working and they’re producing good things. There’s also the other side, and Germany has spread into service sectors, into modern technology, also startups. I was last week visited by the local CEO of Foodpanda, Foodpanda is a very successful delivery service, it’s a German company, Foodpanda is owned by Delivery Hero in Berlin before it was called Foodpanda. It has expanded from Germany to 70 countries all over the world. It’s a hundred percent German company, if you order next time from Foodpanda, they cannot do anything about the quality of the restaurant you order from, but hopefully the mechanism should work, the servers are in Germany, so if you order something online it will be processed by a computer in Berlin.
We have other companies who come to the country, who are interested to develop together with Pakistan, into new fields and that’s where the Germans come into bearing. We have 10-15000 students from Pakistan and Germany that learn technology, that learn in medical field, you have the companies that would like to work with these students when they come back in order to promote the way of Pakistani companies to be successful together. Germans offer one container, a container full of technology, we’re not Chinese when you get two containers one of technology and one of Chinese, we need Pakistanis, we need to train them and they will work for you in the future and they will feed their families and they will train others. Thank you.
Vice Adm (R) Khalid Mir, Co-Chairman KCFR: You mentioned about Modi and India very briefly so I thought I’ll give you a few quotations that I just came across two days back, perhaps might take the focus at the international scene. There’s a magazine which I am sure you know about, it’s called the Freedom House in the United States. They wrote in their report, it says: “India is not now a flag bearer of being the largest democracy. It can now be called an electoral autocracy, which means one person, one absolute power” and that’s what you see now, the absolute power. It goes on to say: “What we see now in India is fascism. Gone is secularism, freedom of values, equality of human and citizens etc., this is all now buried under the might of Hindutva under Modi.” It continues: “The pathetic plight of Muslims in India and occupied Kashmir under the newly enacted laws,” so they call them the laws but they’re so severe that I don’t think it’s that simple, they are well known and need no repetition in any way.
Now that you’ve heard this aspect of our relationship, my question is; where are the bastions and pillars of human and religious rights, civil liberties, freedom etc., and I then further ask, why are the western media and their parliaments conspicuous by their absence, we don’t get to hear anyone, the media there is silent, the parliaments, I saw one resolution passed by the European Union about nine months ago, I read it out also, and that was a very good one but then after that it’s complete silence. I went through the EU resolutions and I didn’t see anything on Kashmir. So what I’ve just read out shows that there is a tremendous amount that is missing as a gap, it’s not being plugged in by people who can, people like yourself your excellency, if you were to write a report that you had a meeting like this and this is what we had to say, they’re going to decide, the people that matter, as to what should be given to the media and what not, and then release it. Let the media be free to talk about India and what’s going on there. I feel, honestly, that the general public here would like to know, as to how much has been prompted by the embassies here.
H.E. Bernhard Schlagheck: I would perhaps tend to be a bit more cautious on the characterization of Prime Minister Modi. There are fascist elements. I think Mr. Modi is particularly populist, he is seeing where he can make the most in terms of popular support. We have seen horrible scenes as he was Chief Minister, but there were also phases where he was quite reasonably dealing with Muslim countries that he has excellent connection with, particularly Gulf countries. I do think he is a populist, and populist we see all over the world, we have seen at the helm of the US. You are not shielded from populism, and people who basically are devoid of any major political principle, just to get the votes they want to get. And then here again, you know India much better than I do, there is still, I don’t say the same for Pakistan, again Pakistan has its democratic policy upside down in but in India there is still a decent degree of institutional setup.
I think as much as we have to have trust in this Pakistani issue, we have seen in the past it’s a mixed bag. The Pakistani judiciary is not impeccable, but I would give still to the democratic institutional set up in India. Again, I am not saying what we are seeing is acceptable and nice to see, no, but I think there is still a decent degree of institutional setup that could perhaps at least mitigate or even correct the wrong, that at least should be our aim. That to some exception is also Pakistan’s approach because again my sense is, you can harness the potential of this country and of the sub-continent at least in the long run by cooperation. I think there is no other option.
Question: We have talked about everything but logistics, and logistics are the key to the growth of the economy. The Germans are really great in providing the logistics, we have been working with them on and off. I wonder what is keeping them back, we have approached many times but we haven’t received much response except a few companies have come here and they’ve worked around here, but they never grew, they never expanded themselves. On the logistics side, warehousing, they are very good at that.
H.E. Bernhard Schlagheck: The question is what holds them back? Germans are risk averse, particularly potential investors. Most cutting edge companies in Germany, these are middle or even small size enterprises, they invest their own money, and of course that that gives them a particular degree of autonomy, and then obviously you mentioned that there are other investment options available where the investment conditions are better. The possibility to return your money easily from Pakistan into Germany is relatively difficult, you have still litigation problems, particularly big companies. You have political influence, I am not saying that is different in other countries but perhaps at some stage, the yield of the investment is perhaps higher in other countries.
We understand that you want German companies to invest in Pakistan, but tell me first, why so few Pakistanis are investing in their own country which is to some extent true. There is an absence of investment of Pakistanis in their own country. I am not talking about construction and these things where you can have a lot of subsidies, and central bank is pumping money I am not criticizing that. I mean Pakistani business people are business people too, but when it comes to risk investments, Pakistanis themselves are very often shying away from making decent investments. We cannot direct German companies to invest in Pakistan, we can only persuade them, address their mostly exaggerated or even false concerns about security situation etc., and we are trying our best at that but the decision has to be made by them.
I have to say that the council was true to its reputation because I’ve heard there is an open and frank atmosphere of discussion and intellectual quality, and that is good. I really enjoyed the interaction with you.
Chairman KCFR Ikram Sehgal: Excellency, I have listened to all your arguments and discussion. It has been a very pleasant discussion. I’ve worked for 20 years with EastWest Institute. The people that I worked with in Brussels, Ambassador Beate Maeder-Metcalf, Ambassador Martin Fleischer, so I worked with them and I have some understanding of the German position. On a personal note, my grand uncle married a German, and on my maternal side too. My own feeling after hearing you – and I’ve been to Moscow a number of times with EWI and I always found that the Russians were very comfortable with the Germans. At least twice we met with Putin, and it was a very open discussion.
Recently, with all the things that have happened, the most striking thing is that there has been a paradigm shift between the Germans and the Russians.
I do feel that Germany should play a stronger, more positive role than they have. And you have done it in the recent past with France. Germany and France have actually led Europe, this thing would not have come to pass if it wasn’t for Germany and France, and Europe was certainly bound to certain directions. I think Germany should now assume its rightful role. I think we should continue with discussion, engagement and cooperation, and have candid discussions. I am very grateful to you for giving us so much time, coming straight from the airport. Thank you for coming.
H.E. Bernhard Schlagheck: Thank you very much, Chairman. Great pleasure to be here.
