A Webinar on “Afghanistan-Pakistan Relations over the years and its Future Aspirations” was held on 11th January, 2022 at 11 am under the auspices of Karachi Council on Foreign Relations (KCFR), hosted by its Chairman Ikram Sehgal. His Excellency Mr. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib, Charge d’Affaires of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan was the Plenary speaker; the event was moderated by Dr. Huma Baqai, Vice Chair KCFR.
Commodore Sadeed Malik
Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Rahim. The meeting is called to order. I am Commodore Sadeed Malik, CEO Karachi Council on Foreign Relations (KCFR). We start today’s proceeding with an Ayat from the Holy Quran. (Ayat recited). Honourable Mr. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib Charge d’Affaires of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan in Islamabad, distinguished participants, Chairman and Governors of KCFR, learned members, ladies and gentlemen, As Salaam Alaikum. All of you are well aware of the activities of KCFR and I have also introduced the same thing to the Honourable Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib through email so I will skip the basic introduction to KCFR. I would also like to inform you that this webinar will be moderated by Dr. Huma Baqai, who is an Associate Professor and Associate Dean Faculty of Business Administration at Institute of Business Administration (IBA), Karachi and she is also our Vice Chairperson. She has edited and authored a large number of books including Pakistan-Afghanistan Relations – Pitfalls and The Way Forward and that is why she is especially invited to moderate this webinar. May I now request Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib Sahib to kindly address us.
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib, Charge d’Affaires of Afghanistan
Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Rahim. I would like to thank the Karachi Council on Foreign Relations for inviting me to this webinar to share information on the current situation in Afghanistan. Respected participants, as you know Afghanistan is strategically well located in terms of rich cultural and natural resources which is why it has always been a target of foreign invasions.
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
Historically from the times of Alexander the Great to the rise of the Afghan Empire and from the Cold War to the Russian invasion and the subsequent US/Nato-led invasion, our country has been the center of global changes. The fate of Afghanistan also depends on both national and regional political developments. In the last two decades the US-led NATO invasion has overwhelmed out citizens and after many sacrifices God has granted them a great victory. The vision of the new Islamic government is to transform Afghanistan once again into a crossroad of culture and civilization and bring it closer to the world, specially to the region and our neighbours. Over the last two decades, Afghanistan’s long standing relations with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan as a close neighbour have been based on the common trust, development and prosperity. Over the first four decades Pakistan has welcomed and provided shelter to millions of Afghan refugees for which we thank the government and the people of Pakistan. In addition, Pakistan’s support after the withdrawal of US-led forces from Afghanistan was also truly commendable. Moreover I would like to thank the Prime Minister of Pakistan for dedicating about 5 billion Pakistani rupees to Afghanistan as a humanitarian gesture. As the representative of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan I commend the continued efforts of the government of Pakistan, the charitable and social institutions, the business community and the people of Pakistan to support Afghans. Finally I would like to point out that the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan possesses all the essential elements of an independent state and calls on the international community to recognize us and let us enter a new era of political and economic relations in the region and beyond. Thank you so much.
Dr. Huma Baqai
As Salaam Alaikum and good morning, ladies and gentlemen thank you for joining us. We have 31 participants with us as of right now and we are also grateful to Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib who is the representative of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. We will now open the floor for the Q&A session which will largely be in Urdu language. So, Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib sahib and Ikram Sehgal sahib, may I ask the first question myself? Yesterday there was an important development when a member of the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP), a high-profile fugitive who was wanted in Pakistan was killed in Afghanistan, this is being looked at quite positively in Pakistan. Can it now be understood that the interim government in Afghanistan will not allow anyone to use Afghanistan’s soil to launch attacks from?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib Sahib
Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Rahim. First of all thank you for inviting me here. In response to your question let me say that it is the policy of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan to not allow anyone to use Afghan soil against anyone. The Islamic Emirate is very strict about this stance and will never allow anyone to use our soil against not only Pakistan but against any entity in the world.
Dr. Huma Baqai
Can you please expand a bit on how you can ensure, the steps you may take, to make certain that this policy is maintained?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
It is obvious that we will take all measures, will make policies to ensure that no one can use our soil against anyone, we will be making full use of our resources to ensure this. It is certainly not in Afghanistan’s advantage or of its people, we have been witnessing such problems since the last 40 years but we will take steps necessary to make sure that Afghanistan itself remains peaceful and does not allow anybody to attack from our soil.
Dr. Huma Baqai
Thank you very much. The next question is from Mr. Qureshi Usman. What is the current situation regarding fencing of our borders? You may recall that efforts were made recently to destroy/remove the fence, so what is your government’s stance on the fencing, 94% of which has already been completed and it is the resolve of both the Pakistan government and the Pakistan Army to have it completed 100%. Can you also ensure that no one will now try to uproot/destroy the fence?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
We will definitely try to resolve such problems that will crop up between neighbours. Incidentally, a delegation from Pakistan is currently visiting Kabul to discuss this and other such matters that have cropped up bilaterally and work out a solution. At this time the Afghan government is talking on this and other problems and will try and resolve it, Insha Allah.
Dr. Huma Baqai
What is Afghanistan’s policy on Daesh? And about TTP. If these groups are in Afghanistan what does the govt think about them, particularly Daesh? What steps are you taking to control Daesh and also TTP?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
You may no doubt be aware about the very clear stance of the Islamic Emirate on Daesh. When Daesh was born, there were hidden hands behind them and were trying to use them against us also but it is the Islamic Emirate’s agenda to rout them out and finish them. The situation today is that Daesh has almost been wiped out from the Islamic Emirate except for a few pockets, so this is not a serious issue, it will be brought to an end soon.
Dr. Huma Baqai
Do you have the same position regarding the TTP? Stop them from working against Pakistan?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
It is the Islamic Emirate’s policy to not allow anyone to work against us or any other country, we will try to control them in every manner possible. Recently there were discussions between the TTP and the Pakistan government, however there appears to be gap but one hopes the talks will continue, I have hopes that this will not be a big issue, Insha Allah.
Dr. Huma Baqai
How do you see the relations of your government with Bharat?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
It is the policy of the Islamic Emirate to have peaceful relations with all our neighbours, we will not interfere in the internal affairs of any country nor will we accept anyone doing so against us. We believe in peaceful political relations and in keeping good economic relations with them.
Dr. Huma Baqai
You mean to say that the Islamic Emirate wants to keep good and harmonious relations with Bharat?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
Of course. We will not allow anyone to indulge in negative political relations. We ourselves will not do so nor will we allow anyone else to do so against us and I believe this will be in our interest.
Dr. Huma Baqai
What about the help that was announced to Afghanistan keeping in view the humanitarian crisis in your country, has any help arrived or is the situation the same?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
First of all there are problems relating to the humanitarian situation in our country. No help has yet been received despite the adverse situation, nonetheless we must continue cooperating with them. It is the obligation of our neighbours and the international community to step forward and lend a helping hand and to those who have already helped us, particularly the people and government of Pakistan and we would also like to thank the section of international community who provided assistance to us. We also think that even if they provide us with aid, it will help in solving the problem on a personal level but frankly this cannot be resolved totally. We believe that we, with assistance from the international community, must try and strengthen our economy to be able to stand on our feet and bring stability to our country, then many of our problems will be resolved, Insha Allah.
Dr. Huma Baqai
In this regard the international community believes that the situation in Afghanistan pertaining particularly to the rights of women, education of women, allowing women to work, etc, is insufficient. Promises that were made in Doha and are not being fulfilled and this is the reason why no progress is being made on recognition of your government. Will you kindly let us know your government’s position on issues like human rights, women’s rights, etc? Will there be a reversal as was promised by you in the Doha Peace Process?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
In actual fact the problems we have with the world are not because we are not giving our people the rights being mentioned. Our policy is that according to Islam every man and woman have been given certain rights and we are committed to granting them these rights. The problems being faced today in the prevailing situation are because of the procedure/techniques being used, we have no problem in people going to work or getting education in suitable or places, drawing salaries, etc., we are working to resolve all these matters. This does not mean that we are against giving them the right to work or the right to education, unfortunately the section of the world who are raising objections are using this as a pretext to not recognize us.
Dr. Huma Baqai
Shakib Sb, you are saying that you are ready to provide women all rights based on the Holy Quran but a negative propaganda has been initiated against you. Is this what you are saying?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
Yes, absolutely, that is what I have said.
Dr. Huma Baqai
Mr. Riazuddin Shaikh, board member of KCFR will now ask a question.
Mr. Riazuddin Shaikh
As Salaam Alaikum Sardar sb, thank you for taking time out for us, it was a pleasure listening to you. I have two/three points to ask. In Islam there are numerous sects, does your government recognize all these sects? Will the government provide space and accept them? Will they be considered a part of the Afghan nation? Secondly, it has never happened in Islamic history that all Muslims were considered part of the same Khilafat. Do you believe that in future all Muslims will become part of one Khilafat?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
In Islam there are many concepts such as Khilafat, Emirate and for that matter Kingdom can also be termed Islamic. In this regard the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan’s policy is that while living in our land we will establish and follow an Islamic system in our country, and that also not by using force but by providing good governance. We have no intention of ruling over any other part of the world, we will never interfere in the affairs of any other country and will not allow anyone to interfere in ours. This is our policy on which we will remain steadfast.
Dr. Huma Baqai
Let us turn to business and commerce. What kind of arrangements have you set up at the Torkham and Chaman borders. Does the Pakistan government facilitate your business at these two places and whether trade is taking place without any problems?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
Yes, of course. If you look at the figures of the business community, after August 15 when we took over control of Afghanistan there has been a heavy increase in trade. Many people from Pakistan are going to Torkham and other places and trade is taking place. We are taking steps to further increase the two-way trade to and from Pakistan and Afghanistan, this is our policy and it will further benefit both countries.
Dr. Huma Baqai:
Is the government of Pakistan is felicitating this?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
Yes, they have not only promised to facilitate this but have actually helped but of course there is always room for improvement. Our people are still facing some problems in going over to Pakistan but this is being discussed and we hope in the end this will result in increasing trade.
Dr. Huma Baqai
The recent OIC meeting in Islamabad in which a delegation from the Islamic Emirate also took part; closed door meetings were also held between this delegation and the USA. Was any progress made in these meetings that would benefit the people of Afghanistan?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
First of all, arranging such a meeting on the issue of Afghanistan is a huge achievement. We feel this is a good accomplishment and await its results. We sincerely hope that many of the problems we are facing, such as the ones related with our recognition, humanitarian issues, etc. will be resolved. In the meeting our foreign minister presented the viewpoint of the Islamic Emirate i.e. it wanted to have good and peaceful relations with all countries and wanted to remain engaged with everyone to solve its many problems. They accepted our point of view and also gave assurances and promises to assist us; we now wait for the response which we hope will be positive.
Dr. Huma Baqai
Promises were made during the OIC Conference related to aid on humanitarian grounds that would be sent through NGOs only, there was also some talk about fiscal fluidity, however there was no mention about recognition or legitimacy, instead their stress was upon Afghanistan forming an inclusive government and correcting the situation on human rights, only then would they be able to talk. You have already talked about women’s and human rights, what about the demand for an inclusive government?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
About aid coming in via NGOs, we have some reservations, it appears that they want to bypass us from the equation but we have already told them that this would be counterproductive, any help/aid being sent in this manner might well to missing/go astray on the way which is very long. Alternately we have told them to send such aid to the government of the Islamic Emirate, this is the easy way which will not be that expensive. On the matter of an inclusive government, the perception of the world, particularly that of the US is different. According to them our government should bring in people from the 30-40 or 50 people that formed the previous government then it is inclusive. But when we instead let them all go and brought in other people it is not an inclusive government. Maybe they should come and look at our government to judge. Naturally as far as political postings are concerned, personnel from the Taliban have filled these posts, in the other posts, technical, etc, they are still made up of personnel from the previous government who run into the thousands. Their perception must be changed.
Dr. Huma Baqai
This questions relates to trade relations between Afghanistan and Central Asia, is there peace in Afghanistan, like a peace corridor, that will allow exchange of trade? Secondly, please inform us about your relations with China.
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
At the moment the situation regarding security in Afghanistan is much better than what it was, this can be very much verifiable by the Western world if it wants to do so. Over the last twenty years, people were dying every day in Afghanistan and the world with all power and resources at its disposal could do nothing about it however during the last few months when the Islamic Emirate took over there has not been a single death like what was happening previously. This would also mean that Afghanistan today presents a good example for business and investment for the world. As for China and Central Asia I have already said that we want to maintain good relations with them, in fact we do have good relations with them. As you know our people have gone to these countries, their people have visited us, some agreements have also been signed, we are even now engaged with them and with South Asia to ensure that a link is established via which we can do transit trade. This will be fruitful for everyone, the neighbours and others.
Dr. Huma Baqai
I now have a question from Mr. Siraj relating to Pakistan’s role in bringing Afghanistan closer to the world. How do you see it? What else can Pakistan do, acting like a bridge between you and the world? Do you believe your message is being received by the outside world?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
Frankly, whoever is assisting us in these tough times either politically, economically, humanitarian or whatever, we would like to thank them – be it Pakistan or others in the world. We are grateful to them all.
Dr. Huma Baqai
What about the KHAD which was operating in the previous government, is it still operating under your government?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
Does this mean whether the many services that worked under the previous governments are also working under us? If so, the answer is Yes. Obviously when a new government takes over, all the institutions, services, etc. are also take over and they continue to work under the new government. Let me give an example, I work in the Embassy of Afghanistan in Islamabad, the rest of the staff members working used to work with the previous embassy and they have all been retained by us. The system is the same, there are no drastic changes.
Dr. Huma Baqai
Mr. Javed Ashraf would like to ask a question
Mr. Javed Ashraf
As Salam Alaikum Shakib sb. What is your opinion about the Durand Line?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
The Durand Line is not an issue with the government, it is an issue for the people of Afghanistan. The ultimate decision will lie with them, the people who live in Afghanistan and the nation. The government will accept whatever decision is made by the people.
Dr. Huma Baqai
Does your government believe the Durand Line is an international border? Pakistan treats it like an international border.
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
This is not only an issue with the Afghan government but is one for the people, the entire nation and it is their problem. The name Durand Line was given a long time ago but there are many problems, this can only be resolved through negotiations and discussions. We can go to the people, ask them and hear what they will have to day. Whatever problems that may crop us between us can only be resolved though discussions.
Dr. Huma Baqai
One last question please. What lesson have you learnt since decade of the 90s? Is there any difference from the Taliban of the 90s and the Taliban of today? Would you like to work in a way that would be different from the previous one, because the does not really believe so?
H.E. Sardar Ahmad Khan Shakib
When a person starts getting older, the experiences he has also start getting more mature, this is a natural process. We cannot even think of shying away from the teachings and rules of Islam, in this we are steadfast, there can never be any change here. As far as worldly issues are concerned, yesterday these were different from today, as far as Afghanistan is concerned, we are trying to work in accordance with the world of today, the demands of today because we will not be successful if we try to work on our own, we will do everything in our power to remain engaged with the world. In case there are problems the we will attempt to sort them out with discussions and negotiations.
Dr. Huma Baqai
Thank you very much for your time and for answering our questions so patiently. Now I will request Mr. Ikram Sehgal for his comments and vote of thanks.
Chairman KCFR Ikram Sehgal
Salam Alaikum Sardar Sahib. Thank you for patiently answering so many questions which is appreciated; all the more because of a perception in the world that the Taliban are not sophisticated but the skilful and diplomatic manner in which you responded to the many questions is indeed commendable.
I take this opportunity to put before you a few points.
One, it is related to the border between our countries, since the last twenty years we have been under attack, not literally, but a lot of stress on this subject, Pakistan has always been helpful to Afghanistan, although not directly. We have hosted 3 million Afghan refugees, the families of many of your leaders were residing in Peshawar, Quetta and Islamabad, because of which Pakistan was subjected to a lot of hostility and suspicion alleging that the Quetta Shura based in Quetta, who the US alleged were directing the insurgency in Afghanistan. We were under great pressure listening to these suspicions and took a lot of flak for this, but we stood firm and tolerated all this and more to the extent that Pakistan itself became a target of terrorism.
Coming to the matter to fencing of our borders. As a matter of fact, the fencing is nothing new it is being constructed since the last 4-5 years but we have never heard any voices of dissent from Afghanistan, this was being done to prevent drug smugglers and insurgents from slipping into Pakistan. It is only recently that the Afghan government started opposing this project, saying that it would want to talk to Pakistan on the subject, to me personally this came as a surprise and was depressing because this was being called a ‘point of contention’, which it is certainly not because no one from Afghanistan had raised such a point in the past.
Two, since 1991 when you took over the government after taking control of Kabul, if we look at Bharat, it has always been opposed to the Taliban, there is no doubt about this. Previously when the US wanted to enter into discussions with you initially, Bharat created hurdles and did not allow you to talk to the US. Ultimately when the US eliminated India it was able to enter into direct negotiations with you. Bharat was also elbowed out, not involved in any way in the final negotiations between the Taliban and the US. KHAD according to you is an Afghan institution, the fact remains that KHAD was trained 100% by India and was used primarily against Pakistan, they did not work in Afghanistan. I recognize the importance of institutions and their working arms, but intelligence is the one area that will continue to definitely give you wrong or negative information about Pakistan with the intention of hurting us. Personally I feel sorry and worrying that you have not been able to control KHAD or have it removed because the personnel in KHAD will always be working for the Indian agenda.
Thirdly, it is about the Muslims in India. The BJP government with which you wish to keep good relations, is exhorting people openly to use swords and guns against the Muslim population of India. Hindus are being urged not to do any business with Muslims and to isolate them. Hate speech against Muslims has become an everyday affair, even calling for genocide against Muslims of India. Sardar Sahib, you are a Muslim, of which sect is immaterial but if you could speak just one single word to the people in Afghanistan or to the world, in favour of the Muslims in India, particularly Muslims in Kashmir who are being subjected to the worst kind of atrocities, it would have made me and made every Pakistani happy and proud. Unfortunately, we do not hear anything on this topic from your government. But you are our brother and friend and you can rest assured that we will continue dealing with you in the same manner we have been doing over the last thirty years, there should be no doubt on this. You may do something for us or not, you may do something for the Muslims of India or not, you may do something for the Kashmiris or not, is entirely your matter.
We are extremely happy that you have come here and I am also proud at the sophisticated manner in which you replied to so many questions.
Thank you very much.
