Pakistan – Turkey Relations

A webinar was held on 15th December 2020 under the auspices of the Karachi Council on Foreign Relations (KCFR), chaired by Chairman Ikram Sehgal and moderated by its Vice Chairperson Dr. Huma Baqai. H.E. Ihsan Mustafa Yurdakul, Ambassador of Turkey to Pakistan was the Chief Guest.

H.E. Ihsan Mustafa Yurdakul started the proceedings by saying that it was a great pleasure to get together with the distinguished members of the KCFR and all participants, he bid everyone a very good morning. He said that one would have liked to have this talk not on an online set up but in the presence of all friends and colleagues in one room but this COVID makes us find new ways and means to interact with each other. Thanks to this new technology we can still communicate and keep in touch.

He further said “I would like to briefly touch upon the Turkish-Pakistan relationship and my plan is actually to leave the bulk of the resource time for questions you might have pertaining to the various issues that Turkey is faced with. Turkish-Pakistan ties are more than a relationship and whenever I am asked about our bilateral relationship, I immediately object and say that ‘we need a correction here’. The thing between Turkey and Pakistan cannot be called a ‘relationship’ because a ‘relationship’ by definition means you need two parties with a distance between them so they can relate with each other but the case of Turkey and Pakistan there is no distance between them, so in my humble opinion it is better to call our interaction as a “bond” which started a long time ago and Insha Allah we will pass this very important legacy to the next generation.

Our political relations with Pakistan have always been great and Al Hamdolillah it is still the same regardless of who is in power back in Turkey or here in Pakistan. We have always had an excellent level of political relations between the two countries. As you will recall the last high-level event was President Erdogan’s visit to Islamabad in February this year just before the COVID time off, if I may put it that way. During that visit it was again clear that Pakistan and Turkey have a good legacy of brotherhood, cooperation and solidarity and it was very good to see that both leaders on both sides were very committed and keen to take this bond further in the years to come. We have various mechanisms to keep this marvelous political relation alive and ticking, we have a high-level strategic group shared by the President and Prime Minister, we have working groups encompassing all walks of life, such as trade, economy, tourism agriculture, Defence industry, etc., you name it. We cover all walks of life to make this bilateral bond every stronger and more exemplary. What is missing, in my humble opinion, are the economic and commercial ties between our two countries. Yes, we have a trade volume of around US$ 700-800 million but given the size of the two economies this is definitely not enough we should be doing more on both sides to take this further. To this effect both sides are working to have a Trade Agreement and before the COVID hit us, this exercise was going ahead on full speed. The two sides are now doing their homework and in the days to come I am hopeful that we will be coming closer to finalizing this Trade Agreement. But what is positive about the economic and commercial sphere is that I can see an increasing appetite from Turkish investors who would like to come and benefit from the emerging economic indicators of Pakistan, which is a very big and promising market. It has huge resources and the capacity to be an important trade partner of Turkey and beyond. So, Insha Allah, we will see more Turkish business people and entrepreneurs coming to Pakistan and hand in hand with their Pakistani counterparts we will see bilateral activities increasing, also in the field of trade and economy in the coming years.

In the field of cultural and social activities Turkey proves to be a very important destination for Pakistanis as we have seen the numbers of Pakistani visitors to Turkey increasing every year. Even during this COVID period, despite the restrictions and impediments faced, we were able to keep the airline connection open and I am happy to report that Turkey is one of the top destinations for Pakistani tourists. In the sphere of cultural exchanges, I should also mention the very important effect of TV dramas to increase interaction between the two nations, I can see the impact our latest drama Ertugrul had in Pakistan, the numbers of viewers went through the roof and frankly even we were not familiar with such numbers in Turkey. Our Pakistani brothers and sisters kind of embraced this TV series and provided a spin-off effect that was the spike we saw in the numbers of Pakistani tourists to Turkey. We can also see some increasing cultural and cinematographic activities with Pakistan shooting some films, joint products, etc. all these are spin-off effects of the TV drama.

On international issues I will leave it to your questions but I would like to say that in the present challenging times the more Pakistan stands with us it is for the better for both countries because there are huge challenges that affect our countries and our geography. It is best we stand by side and prove to the world that Turkey and Pakistan are the two powers in this region.

Now I would like to turn the floor back to the moderator and I will be more than happy to take your questions. Thank you very much.”

Moderator Dr. Huma Baqai thanked the Turkish Ambassador for presenting a very positive picture of Pakistan-Turkey relations and said that Turkey is looked upon in Pakistan as almost a role model, whether it is the transition of a political model or democracy or how you handle your economy. Turkey has been a favourite destination for Pakistanis and I would also like to add that the option of acquiring Turkish nationality for Pakistanis has also gained a lot of traction in Pakistan. I also have a question on that but I think this should go to somebody in the Pakistan Foreign Ministry rather than the Turkish Ambassador here.

Q1) Ambassador Javed Ashraf, Vice Chairman KCFR: UAE recently recognized Israel. Other countries are expected to follow, even Saudi Arabia may probably also recognize Israel. But they are recognizing Israel without anything in return with respect to the Palestinian cause. Your comments please?

Thank you very much for your question, Javed Bey. I should return to the basics that it is every country’s sovereign right to establish diplomatic or formal relationship with any other country that it wants to this part of the discussion is beyond the subject of any commentator. What I can comment on, as you put it, about ‘anything in return’ if you remember when this was first made public there was great emphasis stating that Palestine and its people will also be the beneficiary of this latest recognition of Israel by certain countries. My personal objection comes to that point. You can, as I said, establish diplomatic relation with any country you want but if you try to sugar coat it with some very unreality perceptions, expectations or commitments I do not think this is the best way to go because as things stand even on the night of that recognition there was no certain commitment by Israel on cessation of building new housing in the occupied territories let alone the other “gains the Palestine brothers might receive.” My displeasure would be to that specific point.

Q2) Mr.  Saleem Farooqui, Treasurer KCFR: Excellency much earlier there was a group, the Regional Cooperation for Development (RCD) primarily between Pakistan, Turkey and Iran. Do you think this can be revived, especially the relationship with Iran, the things that are changing in the region, the new phenomena we see in this region? What does Turkey think about the relationship with Iran?

Thank you very much Mr. Farooqui. About RCD, let me tell you that when I came to Pakistan about three years ago, I have always heard a lot of good things and good memories about RCD from relatively elder brothers and sisters travelling all the way from Islamabad or Lahore to Ankara or Istanbul sharing memories discovering all those countries. In those days there was a very different geopolitical reality but today we are living through new realities. I will stick to one point and Turkey also sticks to that point; neighbourhood is very important. It is our custom and tradition, during good times as well as bad ones, that you should always be on good terms with your neighbour. Beyond that it is our sincere belief that if our regions will have some positive prospects for the years and decades to come, there is only one way to ascertain that and that is through regional ownership. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of regional ownership because if we do not underline this notion enough, we will always be open to outsiders or third countries from different parts of the world who will try to dictate their terms, their will, their intentions and at the end of the day it will not be beneficial to the countries of the region. This region is the cradle of civilization, we know how to live together and we know how to prosper so I don’t think we don’t need any kind of dictation on how to “behave” or how to conduct business with each other and the rest of the world. For this we have to have this regional ownership. In that sense we see Iran as an important regional country. You know that there was no armed conflict with the then Turkish Ottoman Empire and the Safavid Iran since the 17th century and we have had a peaceful common border for decades. This is something we really cherish and I believe our Iranian brothers share the same feeling. But in these modern times, I think regional ownership should be accompanied by more trade, more exchanges and more interconnection and it would be best if all three countries could focus on this very practical aspect on a kind of new economic trade partnership. Thank you so much.

Q3) Sirajuddin Aziz (Group Financial Institutions CEO, Habib Bank Zurich): Thank you Excellency for those introductory remarks. In order to promote economic relationship it is absolutely necessary to have financial institutions of each country on both sides. I know for a fact that a Pakistani bank has been operating in Istanbul for many years and as far as I know Turkey has never had its banks working in Pakistan ever. Could your office persuade the Central Bank of Turkey to open up Turkish banks in Pakistan?

Yes, thank you. This is one of the missing points that we have in the economic/commercial field i.e. the lack of Turkish banking institutions in Pakistan. You are right we have a branch office of Habib Bank Limited in Istanbul and as far as I know, they are quite happy doing business there. This is something we need to rectify, if I may put it that way, but on the other hand we have good institutional relationship between the State Banks of the two countries, they are in contact with further developing the idea of having bilateral trade on the basis of local currency. The interaction is there but you are absolutely right, we should be more interactive to promote to the Turkish banking institutions about the potential of Pakistani financial market and I hope they would also be part of this emerging market.

Q4) Miss Sadaf Khalid: (Representing Commonwealth Entrepreneurs’ Club as an Ambassador for Tourism for Pakistan, UK). How can the office of H.E. the Ambassador Turkey encourage Turkish tourists coming to Pakistan as Pakistan has been projecting Turkey as a tourist destination. Gwadar is the upcoming hub for Pakistan and the present government is very supportive for investments for Gwadar how can Turkish investors come in? I am working on a project for tourism perspective for Gwadar.

Thank you, Sadaf Khalid. For the tourism question, first of all I must commend the steps the Pakistan government is taking both in the field of promoting Pakistan as an emerging destination for tourism and also for the practical steps they came up with last year i.e. electronic visa for most countries are now put in place. In view of the COVID situation, this will really be a very effective tool and once we overcome the challenge of COVID, I think Pakistan is bound to become increasingly a tourism destination. But this will not be happening overnight. Anyway, Turkey now is an important tourism destination but this too did not happen overnight, it only came after long years of improvement in many fields, first of all improving infrastructure all round so that any tourist in Turkey can be comfortable. Moreover, another important factor is that tourism cannot only be dealt with only through the government’s approach, in my humble opinion, it is only through approach by the entire nation. Every citizen should have the feeling that they are part and parcel of one big project which is for the benefit of the country and they should be contributing to that in any way they can. The third thing is professional education, I mean the vocational education if I may put it that way the services. There should be a minimum level of service quality throughout the country if you want to try to impose yourself as a tourist destination. For that Insha Allah we will be of assistance to Pakistan, our development agency has undertaken with the Federal Ministry of Education, Pakistan to come up with a Center of Excellence for Vocational Training focusing especially on Tourism. Once we finish that project, we will have more qualified service people which will of help to improve tourism in Pakistan. As far as Turkish tourists coming to Pakistan are concerned, I should be honest with you and say that with so many excellent tourist spots in Turkey and all those facilities, my own nationals become a big lazy to get out and look at third country destinations and whenever they go abroad they try to match and compare services with that they have in Turkey. But I am confident with the E-visa and Pakistan coming up more and more in tourism I hope my countrymen will also be coming to Pakistan in big numbers.

Regarding Gwadar and for the wider CPEC issue, as I said, there is always an interest on part of our entrepreneurs to come and utilize the opportunities in Pakistan. The thing about Gwadar and Special Economic Zone I think there should be more mechanisms and facilities both by the private sector along with the government sector, they should be more in the ‘promotional mood’. I think they should be doing some ‘Road Shows’ back in Istanbul, Izmir, Ankara, etc. to lure and to inform Turkish investors more about the prospects of Gwadar ports, SEZs. Thank you very much.

Q5) Dr. Farhatullah Babar: I wish to complement His Excellency for a very comprehensive brief. My question is that we already talked about the commonalities, the similarities between Turkey and Pakistan. One area that has been agitating the minds of many people is the military’s interference in politics both in Turkey and in Pakistan in the past. Both Turkey and Pakistan have witnessed the hanging of their elected Prime Ministers, Adnan Menderes in Turkey and Zulfiqar Bhutto in Pakistan by the military and both Pakistan and Turkey have also seen the military’s growing influence in businesses but during the last decade or so. Turkey has been able to largely overcome this handicap where the military’s interference in politics has been reduced, not only reduced but almost eliminated. Would you, Excellency, like to share the experiences of Turkey in checking its military and from stopping the military from interfering in politics? Would you like to elaborate on the role, on the Turkish model adopted?

It was good to see brother Farhatullah Babar, it was a long time ago that we last met in Islamabad. This is an important question but there is no easy way to answer it. But as he suggested, let me share my humble experience attached to the question and my country. Yes, we have gone through some very unfortunate periods during the march to democracy and rule of law. Yes, there was a prime minister who was executed by the leaders of the coup d’état back in early 60s. First of all, we should all bear in mind that this journey to democracy and rule of law is a long one, our adventure with democracy officially started with the 1946 elections but even during the Ottoman period we have seen the first glimpses of local administration or division of power between legislature and the Sultan himself so we have a long legacy of the democratization process. But it was not easy even for Turkey. During these times we also went through the period of Cold War and we found our place in the league of democracies in the western sphere, it also helped Turkey establish itself as a democratic nation. The main reason came from the will of the people, our people, starting from early election up until the last one the people are very much eager to show up for the ballot boxes and share their opinion about their rulers and are very much sensitive about the exercise of this right. During the last 18 years, during the reign of Mr. Erdogan’s party the emphasis on the rule of law and the will of the people was always on the forefront and it was with the efforts of the people themselves that we can uphold the principle of civilian rule. I think the best way to put it is to say ‘as long as you have a structure in the hands of civilians that rules out intervention of any sort. This is just like in nature, in the earth it is not tolerable to have a vacuum in any place, if there is a vacuum there are always different elements seeking to fill in that vacuum. So, the best way is not to leave any vacuum. Thank you very much.

Q6) Mr. Majeed Aziz (from the business community): Excellency, I was actually given this question to ask you in June when you were supposed to be at the English-Speaking Union of Pakistan. Five of us Board Members are right now participating in this very important Webinar. The question: Is there any possibility of Turkey removing 27% anti-dumping duty on denim fabric and to some extent 32% on garment from Pakistan? My other question is; What is the possibility of establishing Countertrade? For example, Turkish cement can be cheaply exported to Africa instead of from Pakistan and Turkish goods that Pakistan produces can be exported to Central Asia or other countries. Your comments please.

Thank you very much Majeed Sb. For the duty regime, this year was particularly a difficult one for almost all countries including Turkey. In the earlier phase of the COVID-19 situation our government came up with a decision in order to protect our domestic production. They raised duty on numerous items including those that affected our trade with Pakistan, mainly in the field of textiles and this was initially put in place until the end of September and then extended till the end of 2020 i.e. end of this month. We have to wait and see whether the government will keep it that way or not but regardless of that I will encourage all business people that once we are back to normal there are many other fields waiting to be utilized in terms of bilateral trade, I can give numerous examples but there is a vast variety of items that can be subject to bilateral trade between Turkey and Pakistan. Turkey is part of Customs Union with the European Union and Pakistan is part and parcel of BRI initiative through its CPEC project so opportunities exist on both sides. What the business community of both sides can do is to come up with Direct Investment, Joint Ventures, etc. so they can come to the point that while increasing bilateral trade, there are other opportunities as well and use each other’s countries as a base to produce items which would be directed to third countries and I think Pakistan and Turkey are two convenient countries for that. You mentioned Africa and I should point out that Turkey has a very established trade and commercial practices with African countries, one striking example is that in the last 50 years or so our trade volume has increased over tenfold with sub-Saharan African countries. There are many reasons for that and our focus is now on Africa as well, plus some practical measures which include direct flights of Turkish Airlines from Istanbul, etc. to multiple points in Africa, in fact, our airlines covers almost all of the continent. Yes, there are many things we can do together and we should encourage our business communities to look for more opportunities in our respective countries. Thank you.

Q7) Maj Gen Shakeel Hussain: My question is about the shifting position of the Middle East in the recent past. It is very uncomfortable for the Muslim world to see this shift in the Middle East. In view of this, how to you see Turkey 20 years down the line with Israel because these pressures will continue to be there given the projection of Israel as it is today.

Thank you very much, Shakeel Bey. The first time we encountered a direct interaction with the Jewish community goes back to the 15th century in Spain when they were under prosecution and they sought protection in the Ottoman Empire and the Sultan at that time, Sultan Bayazid, more than welcomed the Jews. Reason being he thought the Jewish population has lot of experience with commerce, with trade and he thought it would be a big benefit for the Ottoman Empire to have the Jews as part and parcel of the Empire. So, from that time on until the latest period of the Ottoman Empire they were its integral part, the Sultan and the Administration always kept good relations with the Jewish denomination. After the proclamation of Israel as an independent State, moving from the historical and significant background of good historical relationship with the Jewish people, Turkey was one of the countries recognizing Israel. During this period of diplomatic relationship, we were always there echoing the issue of Palestine during our dealings with the Israeli administration. We were also in the forefront trying to bridge the gap between Syria and Israel back in early and mid-2000s, we were very much involved in the peace process during that time. But when things went ‘negative’ because of wrong policies of Israel with regard of the State of Palestine we were also there to warn them to change their course time and again. For some time now we have just an Embassy in Tel Aviv but our level of representation is quite low with Israel. As long as they do not change their course of approach to the Palestine issue, I think things between Turkey and Israel will not revert back to the point where it once was in history. Thank you so much

Moderator Dr. Huma Baqai thanked the Ambassador and also all participants and said that “we have had more than 70 participants and I am sure this talk will attract more traction when we stream it. Some very good questions came in and in fact there are many more in the queue and we apologize to those whose questions we were not able to take because of paucity of time. We are really very grateful for the kind of participation we have seen. I would now invite the Chair of KCFR Mr. Ikram Sehgal to offer his vote of thanks. I also want to congratulate Mr. Sehgal for battling COVID and winning it, usual for the man he is, so it is good to have you back. Over to you.”

Thanking Dr. Huma Baqai, Mr. Ikram Sehgal thanked His Excellency the Ambassador “for a very intensive discussion and answering questions”. Narrating an incident, he said, “I was in Davos in 2009 when Mr. Shimon Peres and Mr. Erdogan were both on stage in a plenary session. The auditorium was jam packed and as I could not find the space to sit down, I kept standing at the door on one side of the stage. Something then happened on the stage, it was not clear at that time but I did come to know of it later. It so happened that Mr. Perez had passed some remark about Israel upon which Mr. Erdogan just got up and walked off the stage in Davos. I was standing near the gate, I was not clear at that time what had happened (I only came to know later), he looked at me and said, “Pakistani?” I said ‘Yes” and he embraced me. For me it was a great occasion but afterwards I came to know that upon Mr. Perez passing a remark about Israel, Mr. Erdogan just walked off from a world stage. I would also like to mention here about an issue that was raised about the Army’s intervention in politics, etc. Interventions do not take place if the leaders are not corrupt, I would like to point out that when a Turkish coup d’état took place in 2016 – two things happened. Mr. Erdogan went into the center of the storm, he flew in straight away to where in Istanbul was the eye of the storm and number two, the coup d’état failed because the Turkish Armed Forces supported him. With the people in the streets and the Armed Forces the coup failed. Here, the coup d’états do pass, maybe with reason or without reason, but if the leaders are corrupt that is exactly what is going to happen”.

Let me say something about the level of our friendship. On 15th January 1974 a coup d’état in Cyprus was carried out by the Greek Junta ruling Greece, they replaced Arch Bishop Makarios tilting the balance. Turkey immediately gave a warning that if they did not restore the Cyprian government Turkey would intervene and within five days they did just that because of which Cyprus still remains united. The result was that the Cyprian government was restored, the Greek Junta fell and Mr. Karamanlis came back and took over as the democratically elected Prime Minister all this was because of the Turkish invasion of Cyprus on a needed basis.

I must tell you something very interesting. Our Prime Minister at that time was Mr. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto who was a very close friend of PM Karamanlis and he requested to mediate this dispute as he also knew Makarios. PM Karamanlis agreed but the Turkish said that they had a problem. What was the problem, asked Bhutto? They said as far as Pakistan is concerned, whether it was right or wrong, you will always support Turkey, so it is not fair to the Greeks that you arbitrate this dispute. So Mr. Bhutto decided that this was not diplomatic.

I would also like to point out the recent Azerbaijan issue where Turkey was supported by Pakistan without any question and that is why the Azerbaijan problem was solved in favour of what is right, Nagorno Karabakh was a Muslim community. I want to go back to the first question about the RCD. In fact, l let us go further back. The Baghdad Pact consisted of Pakistan, Iran, Turkey and Iraq, it was at that time sponsored by western powers far away like the US, Britain, etc. Today it is just the reverse, for whatever it is worth, the friendship between Turkey, Iran and Pakistan still exists but today and the friends are much nearer i.e. Russia and China. It is just a question of reviving the problem.

In the end, Excellency, it’s so wonderful having you talk to us and I want to commend you on the way you answered questions, I would also not like to forget my friend Tolga Ucak the Honorary Consul of Turkey here. When I was Chairman Karachi Electric, there was a problem with his building’s power sub-station, he rang me up and said “You have no choice, I am Turkish” and he was right we had to resolve the problem quickly. We have a long history of relationship and, Mr. Ambassador, we thank you very much. Let me also thank all the participants and I would like to thank Dr. Huma Baqai for her wonderful moderation of this webinar and also members of the Board of Directors of KCFR.

Thank you all, thank you for being here.